Install win98 on ibm thinkpad 365x laptops, no internal cd-rom, no ethernet. Best answer on the web

Jan 08, 2009 @ 05:17 am by admin
  • I have four older IBM TPs that were donated to my childrens org. None have O/S installed. I have external SCSI CD ROM Drive (4x) and enough Win98 PRGs W/ C.O.A's to install but don't have a clue about how to do it! Was told to copy cd to diskettes but keep getting msg that media is too small to copy all data and I don't know how to "split it up" amongst them. No Boot disk either!
    I am NOT an I.T. guy, just a "golden ager" "puttering" for the kids!

    Please help!


  • Yes, I know Mr. Murphy all too well, so it's to be expected that he would visit eventually.
    For the purposes of this particular exercise, here is what I suggest you do. First, assuming your main hard drive can spare the room, create folders on it to hold the Win98 and driver files from the CD, you do not need the extras/samples/bonuses. Same goes for the Win95 CD.
    Now, when you shut down your desktop and open it up, unplug one or both of the CD drives, and use the secondary IDE channel instead (the hard drive remains on the primary IDE channel on its own). Now when you power up, you will have your main hard drive on the primary channel, and the notebook hard drive on the secondary channel... and all of the files you want to copy are on the primary hard drive already, waiting to be copied over to the secondary drive.
    If the notebook hard drive is the only hard drive on the secondary channel, you will not need to worry about jumpers at all, so this approach is probably the best for you anyway.
    The desktop PC *should* see the notebook hard drive as just another hard drive; if it does not show up at all, then it is likely that you will need to unplug both CD drives to dedicate the channel to it; another good reason to copy the files over to your main hard drive first.


  • The only parts that you will need to copy to the hard drives, for now, are the Win98 directory, the Drivers directory (you won't need all of it, but I think you can spare the room for now), and the Tools directory. This is very much a temporary copy; when you run the installation program, it will copy the parts that it actually needs into another directory, then use that for the actual install. These original directories can then be deleted. Since not all of the drivers will be applicable to the Thinkpad, if necessary on the smallest hard drive we can go through and delete selectively to free up more hard drive space for the install. We should be OK, though: 187 + 108 + 33 = 328 MB; add 40 MB for the virtual memory (based on the 40 MB of RAM), plus perhaps another 180 MB for the 'temporary' install directory, and we should still be fine for the 800 MB HD. Absolutely worst case, we can start with the largest one first, clean up the hard drive, then use the desktop PC to backup the installed version to an archive file and then copy it all onto the smaller hard drive. A bit more work, but doable.
    May I inquire as to which of the vendor links found by Froogle you used to purchase the adapter? Some ship by USPS (the most economical approach for a part like this), so it may be a few days before the parts arrive.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Mr. Fixit:

    You're on the right track; if it is necessary to use Windows 95 on one of the laptops instead of Windows 98, then you will indeed need to repeat the process of setting up the hard drive using a Windows 95 boot disk. It gets a little complicated here, though. The FAT32 file system that we have used to format the hard drive is only supported by Windows 95 Service Release 2. This SR2 version of Win95 was only officially made available through OEMs; for retail versions, it is necessary to start with the original version of Windows 95, and apply patches to bring it up to the Service Release 2 capabilities. This means that you will need to reformat the hard drive using the FAT16 file system, first.
    Can you clarify whether your Windows 95 installation will be from a CD, or from floppies? If I recall correctly, Windows 95 was distributed on floppies, with perhaps the final OEM SR2 being available on CD. If you have floppies, then you should be able to boot using Disk 1 of the floppy set. If that is what you tried when you received the "not a system disk" message, then you can download a Windows 95 boot disk. Actually, since we will need to replace the FAT32 file system with FAT16, you're going to need the boot disk image anyway.
    If there is any way at all for you to obtain an additional Certificate of Authenticity for Windows 98, I highly recommend that you do so. Between friends, local businesses, and maybe even computer shops, you might be able to find a no-longer-used copy of Windows 98 (from a defunct computer, for example) that will let you get back on track. Failing this, please:
    - download the Windows 95 (Version A) boot disk image from http://www.bootdisk.com
    - install the smallest hard drive back into one of the laptops
    - boot using the Windows 95 boot disk
    - after the system has finished booting, run FDISK, and again delete/create the partition, this time choosing FAT16 as the file system - FORMAT the drive as a system drive (FORMAT C: /S)
    - Copy all of the files from the RAM disk to C:DOS
    - Eject the floppy and reboot from the hard drive

    At this point, depending on whether your Windows 95 install will be from floppies or a CD, you can either proceed with the floppies to install, or remove the hard drive from the laptop again (you'll be able to do this with blindfolded soon!), and use your desktop to copy the CD contents over.
    With regards to your concern over increasing your payment, first let me assure you that as long you're having fun, I'm more than happy to keep on helping you with this! When I chose to move this discussion into the 'Answer' portion of the service, I did this knowing that it meant that it was no longer possible for you to change the list price for the Question. However, as long as you do not 'accept' the Answer by rating it until we are done, then you will still have the opportunity at the end of this process, using the tipping feature, to increase the payment should you feel that it is appropriate.
    Incidentally, for your future reference, Google Answers Researchers such as myself receive only 75% of the initial list price for answering a question; Google Answers (the service) retains 25% as its share (Researchers are independent contractors engaged by Google Answers, so the 25% is basically the commission that the service charges Researchers in exchange for providing and maintaining this system). So, for example, if the list price is US$10, the Researcher receives $7.50. This helps explain why so many of the $2 questions are never officially answered by a Researcher; sometimes, it just isn't practical to answer a difficult question for only $1.50!
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    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • MrFixIt:

    Glad to have helped. Thank you for the generous tip, and I hope that everything continues to go smoothly for you!
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Mr FixIt:

    I thought I'd check in to see how your progress is. Is that last laptop up and running now?
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Good Morning AHT!

    Obviously you work into the wee hours! I logon looking for email from you at about 10pm E.S.T. but actually find it bright and early in the morning. That's good 'cause I get a fresh start then!
    Thanx for the news about my PayPal question. I feel better now knowing that I can "adjust" for all of your great help!
    I'll check w/ my I.T. folks at work, they're usually helpful when not swamped and perhaps they can steer me to other Win98 C.O.A.s! Thanx!
    The Win95 version that I have is on a CD although it doesn't say anything about a "final" or OEM SR2 Edition" on it anywhere! I put it into my CD drive on my dersktop to see if I could read anything there in the properties box but I guess because it's a i6 bit program, my compouter doesn't recognize the CD???!!!??? IT keeps asking me to place the CD in the drive when it's already there! When I put it into the CD drive the Win95 Flash Screen appears but that's as far as I can get! I do NOT have floppies for Win95.
    Let's talk about the removal o the HDDs and using my desktop: I am a pro now at switching out the 2.5s and probably could do it blindfolded! I haven't yet tried to connect them to my desktop via the adapter (no instructions on connecting) but was wondering if I need to do something in my desktop boot sequences or install a "jumper" (that I don't have) on the 2.5s? I remember having to do that when I installed a slave drive on my old computer for my "elevator music storage". Also, can I assume that when I plug the adapter into the ribbon wire that I put the side with the power connection towards the same side as the "red" wire in the ribbon wire(?) and what about the orientation of the 2.5 itself? On the 2.5s there is normally (I believe) one pin missing in one row and likewise one female slot blanked out on the TP motherboard! No such configuration with this adapter! Can it be installed backwards and if so, what can happen! (You know about "Murphy's Law"! I'm good at that).
    I have copied the following from the web site that you provided, one set for Win95 and another for Win98. These include BIOS, Audio, CD ROM, Infrared, PC Card/PCMCIA, System Utilities and Video. These are all on USB Memory Stick and a CD. Can they be installed on the HDDs when I connect them to my desktop or do I need to put them onto floppies for install that way? (Lotsa floppies!)
    I also obtained a CD ROM of the 365's Maintenance Manual and believe it or not, I have a TP 365 Users Manual also (hard copy).
    Going to try now to boot the smallest HDD to Win95 and await your direction re: above.
    Have a great day!

    Bill


  • MrFixIt:

    First, to complete your sentence, it's "a heck of a guy"!

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    It has been my pleasure to help you! Even after you rate the Answer, you can still request a clarification to this Answer should a problem arise related to the solution. Google Answers (the service to whom I provide my services as an independent contractor) prefers that any net new questions be posted as a new Question, of course.
    Incidentally, I would recommend not posting your e-mail address in Google Answers, for several reasons. First, the Terms of Service for my contract with Google Answers requires that I not have any contact with Google Answers clients outside of the Google Answers system. Second, the contents of Google Answers are searchable in Google itself, meaning that Google Answers information will appear in Google searches. So, for your protection, best to not include your e-mail address in any future Questions.
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    Again, I hope all goes well with the laptops!

    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • eBay is definitely the place to look for additional hard drives for this vintage of computer.
    In the meantime, here is the IBM website for the drivers that apply to the 365X:

    http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=DSHY-3PLLKA

    Now would be a good time to confirm whether or not you need to download the BIOS update listed in that matrix, version 1.10. You can confirm this by turning on the Thinkpads, and hitting the appropriate key to enter BIOS setup (F1, if I recall correctly).
    Windows 98 should have native support for most of the devices. You will want to download the Win98 version of the System Utilities.
    It might also be handy to have an electronic copy of the hardware maintenance manual from IBM. The closest one is this one, labeled for the 360 Series:
    http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=GSMH-3AQCRG

    I'll keep an eye out for your next post after April 8th and the arrival of the adapter.


  • Hello again, my apologies for the delay in replying. I am in the Pacific time zone, which introduces three-hour's worth of difference between our 'online' times.
    If the WIndows 95 version you have was distributed on a CD, then it *may* be the Service Release 2 version. In either case, it is a good idea to start with FAT16 first just in case you need it in order to install Win95. However, if you are not able to view the CD contents or properties using your desktop, then there may actually be a problem with that CD. CD formats have not changed much since Windows 95, so Windows XP should definitely be able to read the CD if the CD is still usable.
    The adapters vary slightly in design from manufacturer to manufacturer, but generally the orientation of the 40-pin connector side should be the same. Take a look at the pin-out diagram on the following page (scroll down about a third of the way):
    http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~przemy/pin_assigments.html

    You are looking at the 2.5" ATA HD connector, with 44 pins for the actual ATA interface, plus six additional for keying and jumpering. Also, see if your particular adapter is anything like the one featured in this little animation:
    http://www.laptopsforless.com/flash/hddadaptermovie.html

    You'll note that the power connection is on the opposite side from the 'red edge', because that's the side where the power pins in the 50-pin connector for the 2.5" HD are located. Nobody ever said that computer component designers were that logical. :)
    If you do install it upside-down (and I'll admit that I did that the first time), you will note from the pinout diagram that the "power" connection ends up where the 'jumper' pins are; while not completely harmless, it is essentially harmless.
    This picture may also help you visualize the orientation relative to the 'up' direction:
    http://www.aquanuke.com/item-3471390773.asp

    As for the drivers, please copy them over to the hard drives at the same time that you copy the rest of the files. Windows 98 does not natively support USB memory keys (you need additional drivers for that... in fact, if you have the drivers already from the keys themselves, copy those over too!).
    You probably will not need to apply the BIOS updates at this time.

    I will be online on and off throughout this long weekend, and will respond ASAP once you have successfully mounted the hard drives (one at a time, of course) in the desktop and copied the files over.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Hi AHT - Total disk space on the Win98SE CD is 656 Mg but that includes every thing on the disk! Win98 itself is 187 Mb - All drivers are another 108 Mb - Tools are another 33 Mb - Add-ons are another 37 Mb and Cd sample (?) is another 291 Mb.
    I'll re-format that drive tonight to FAT32.

    Still awaiting the 2.5 connector!

    Thanx, Bill


  • Good to hear from you, I was beginning to worry!

    My personal rule is family first, everything else second. So definitely take your time; as well, I hope that the emergency was not too serious, and that all is good again?
    There is a high likelihood that the troublesome unit is actually displaying the symptoms of a failing hard-drive. All of the behaviour you've mentioned: refusing to boot, refusing to shut down, missing or corrupt files, are typical symptoms of a hard drive on its last legs. Definitely replace it before depending on it!
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • We're almost there! :)

    This last hurdle, though, is a very tall one. Pretty much an insurmountable one, in fact.
    First, you are absolutely correct in thinking that the problem is with the drive, and not the BIOS. IBM Thinkpads feature multi-level security; the BIOS manages two levels of security (user-password, admin-password for access to BIOS), and the hard drive manages a third level. This way, if someone steals a laptop where password protection is active, they cannot just remove the hard drive from the laptop, install it into another computer, and steal the owner's secrets!
    You're not the first to encounter this problem. Take a look at the bottom paragraph in this webpage, for example:
    http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/reference/biosp.htm

    That teaser bit at the bottom about IBM Thinkpads, unfortunately, is no help to you. You see, the hard-drive password is stored in both the BIOS (if you set it on that laptop) and the hard-drive. In your Thinkpad, the BIOS has no hard drive password, but the hard-drive itself does. So, the hard-drive, using a feature that is standard to the ATA specification, will continue to insist that the BIOS supply it with the correct password (which is why the BIOS asks you to enter it). If the hard-drive's controller doesn't receive the correct password, it basically tells the BIOS to tell you (in kind, gentle, computer methodology) to "go take a hike!" and leaves you locked out.
    There is an extremely long, extremely painful-to-read thread on this at the Experts Exchange:
    http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Q_20423260.html

    (I recommend not reading this... it's more confusing than helpful, since after seven months of 'experts' trying, they found no solution)
    There are some extremely expensive services available (referenced in that thread) that will hack into a hard-drive using clean-room tactics (think white bunny-suits, dust-free environment). These services cost $100+, a price that will get you a box full of old hard drives on eBay. My personal opinion is that the eBay seller was not dealing straight in selling you a locked hard drive, but others would say that this falls under the "buyer beware" clause.
    Because the hard-drive password is stored on the hard-drive itself, no current-generation BIOS will allow you to access the hard-drive without that password. For the value of this used hard-drive, it is not worth sending it to a service that can hack it. I suggest pursuing this with the seller, requesting a refund or replacement, unless of course the shipping and handling charges that you would incur end up 'killing the deal'. In any case, if you have not already provided a rating on the Seller, you may want to warn other potential buyers about the seller selling locked hard-drives.
    Sorry about this bad news, but at least I hope it saves you any further time spent trying to get this hard drive to work.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Good to hear, I'll be on the lookout for your update!


  • Hello AHT! Froogle gave me about seven vendors and I used PC Loft. They stated that I should have the adapter, according to the Fedex site on Apr 8, 2004 by 4:30 pm!
    The costs, for what appeared to be the same exact item ranged betweem $8.95 and $25.00 with shipping at $8.50
    I've been scanning e-bay for additional compatabile hard drives to upgrade to something higher than 800 Mb. I do have two extra drives but both are 814's so no help except in a crash scenario!
    Back w/ you soonest. Bill


  • Hello AHT - That was soooo cooolll! I've run the boot disk for Win98SE and formatted the drives as you instructed. All are using 100% of their disk space and all boot to the "C" drive!
    If this means anything, three are using FAT32 but one indicated unknown in the file system column!? Also, One is a 2.1 Gig, one is a 1.4 gig, one is a 1.0 gig and the last one is a 814 Mb. All have 32 Mg dimms and state that they are 40 Megabytes when I boot them!
    I also ran the standard tests on the machines and all available "stuff" report O.K.

    I'll get back w/ you when the adapter / connector arrives and I have the first drive installed on my desktop!
    The process that you described went so well and smoothly that I am still grinning broadly! Thank you, thank you!
    Bill


  • AHT ! Arghhhh!

    Remember when I referred (in my earlier e-mail) to "Murphy's Law"? (Anything that could go wrong WILL go wrong!), well .......... my desktop, although having a few "extras" on it is a basic Dell Dimension and guess what! The System Board ribbon cable to the Main HDD doesn't have a second available connector! The only other system board full width ribbon wire is connected to my CD and CD-RW drives!(Dell's way of saving $) and it's 8:00 pm Saturday night now so no stores are open to get another cable. I'll have to postpone this until Monday after work (and I have everything I need (except another cable)laid out and ready too!). I never imagined that the secondary connector wouldn't be there! Shame on me for not checking.
    Anyway, while I have you.

    1.Do I need to use a jumper (I can probably get one from my I.T. folks at work) on the TP 2.5 or my own hard drive when I connect the two?
    2. Will my desktop automatically recognize the 2.5 as another drive so that I can copy to it and is that all I do, Copy files from the CD to the 2.5 via the Copy function?
    3. Do I copy ALL of the files from the Win98 CD or just certain ones 'cause there's some "goofy" extras on the CD that'll eat up disk space and that I probably won't need?
    Sorry for this delay! If it were a house that I was building IU'd have known what all I'd have needed but this I.T. stuff!!! Whew!
    Bestest to you.

    Bill


  • Your researcher was exceptional! Far and away more than I ever expected and he worked with me patiently and diligently. A top professional all the way! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!


  • Hi Mr Fixit:

    I hope that Fed Ex delivered as promised? Take your time with the process of preparing the drives for use with your desktop, and let me know once you are ready to proceed.
    Thanks,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Good morning AHT -

    Sorry for not getting back w/you sooner but I've been working on trying to install a used 3.2 gig HDD that I got from ebay into one of the TPs and it's really frustrating me! Perhaps you can suggest something to help.
    When I install the HDD into the TP and before it boots or even before it gets to the boot disk stage I receice a message requesting a password! The icon shows a small HDD so I assume that it boots to the power level but won't allow access to the hard drive w/out a password.
    When I install a different hard drive(s) I don't get that password request so it appears to me that the problem is with that particular hard drive and not the system board or the BIOS.
    I then thought that I could use that 2.5 to 3.5 adapter and connect it to my desktop and format the drive but that too failed. My desktop refuses to recognize the 2.5 hard drive at all!
    I e-mailed the seller of the drive and she says that she doesn't know the password but that I should "just fdisk the drive and my problems will be resolved" (but you can't fdisk anything if you can't access it! She also claims that the problem is NOT with the hard drive but likely w/ the BIOS but, if that's true then I'd have the same problem when I use another hard drive, right?
    Suggestions?

    P.S. - I have two TPs done, have deleted the unnecessary files and folders from the install procedure (Win98 and DOS) and have used less than 400 Mb of the drive space. I even connected one of the two to Road Runner via the PCMCIA Internet card, updated windows and it works wonderfully! Now if I can only get this last one to cooperate, I'll / we'll be done (although I'll sincerely miss working w/ you.)!!!
    Thanx, Bill


  • AHT - Thank you for the quick response!

    One computer boots to DOS but the others just boot to a message that says "no operating system installed".
    I don't think that I know what you mean by a PCMCIA SCSI. I do have PCMCIA cards but they're fax/modem and another is for a RJ45 connection.
    The external CD drive has a cord that plugs directly into the back of the TPs (I think it's called a "SCSI slot"). The cable also has an adapter type plug that connects (adapts the connection/connecter) to a port that looks like a printer parallel port. The smaller port is about 3/4 in long female with what looks like 10 or 15 contacts inside of it! A picture just below this little port looks like a floppy drive door (if that makes any sense?).
    I have a desktop running WinXP and I'm not afraid to go inside of it. The desktop has three CD drives too! One regular 52X reader,a 48X CD-RW and an external Plextor 52x CD/RW!
    I am also not leary about pulling the hard drives from the laptops either as I've already replaced one of them recently!
    Thanx again, Bill


  • Easter greetings to you, too! I am about to head out myself, with my loved ones, to enjoy some of the excellent weather here on the west coast of Canada.
    How will these laptops be used in the future? If they are intended for mobile, stand-alone use, then definitely on the larger hard drives, where you can spare the room, you can copy over the Roadrunner software if needed. If they will be used on a network, though, it would be better not to load the Roadrunner software, as it can interfere with your local networking needs.
    Generally speaking, our goal here is to get the operating systems installed onto the laptops so that you are able to add drivers for the external CD-ROM drive; at that point, you will be able to install any additional software without needing to occupy space on the limited hard drives. So, I would hold off on copying over the MS Office installation files for now, as they tend to be huge.
    I have sad news for you with regards to the USB card you've purchased, though. Thankfully it was a great price you got it for. You see, most USB expansion cards that fit into the PCMCIA slot are actually what are known as Cardbus adapters (you can tell the difference by the gold-colored metal strip on the top of the connector end of the card... Cardbus uses it, 'regular' PCMCIA cards don't). As you've guessed from my tone here, the 365X does not have Cardbus support, as indicated by this message I found here:
    http://zurich.ai.mit.edu/hypermail/thinkpad/2004-01/0564.html

    This means that you will not be able to use the card with these laptops.

    I'll be offline until the evening; with the three hour time difference between our locations, this might mean that you will not see a response from me to your next post until your morning, I hope that this is not too much of an inconvenience!
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • With temperatures in the mid-20's (Celsius... so that's in the 80's Fahrenheit), it already feels like summer here!

    This driver download should allow you to support the external CD-ROM:

    http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?action=download&driverid=54874

    ( drivers , all)

    Driverguide.com is an advertising supported online archive of user-supplied drivers. It is a useful resource, so I encourage you to check it out when you have time. Please note that everybody who signs up using a valid e-mail address, is e-mailed the same username and password. If you do choose to sign up, please be careful during the sign-up process, or you will receive a lot of solicitations by e-mail.
    As for where to put all these drivers; there is no special location required, so just make a MY_DRIVERS folder to hold them all.
    Note that once you have finished installing the basic operating system using the installation files you have copied over the to hard drive, you are free to delete the installation files. Ideally, you will want to make sure that you have CD-ROM support installed before deleting anything; once you have CD-ROM support installed, you can always move files back over using a CD. For the unit with the built-in CD-ROM, you should not have any problems; for the others, you will need to install the above SCSI adapter driver first, and confirm that it works, before deleting anything.
    As for the PCMCIA card with the RJ45 connector, you should be able to find the driver for it in the DriverGuide.com repository as well; failing that, post the make and model number here and I'll see if I can find it.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • The donated Thinkpads, is there anything on the hard-drives at all, or are they completely empty? As well, for your external SCSI CD-ROM, does it come with a PCMCIA SCSI controller/adapter?
    The best way to accomplish this for four units would be to remove the hard-drives from the laptops, and use a desktop PC to install the OS onto them. If that is not a possibility for you (and for most people, it is not a possibility since it does require quite a bit of technical knowledge), then we will need to explore a way to create a bootable floppy that can support the drivers needed for your external CD-ROM.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Good day again!

    No need to apologize, you're not "delaying" me at all! I'm doing this as a volunteer and on the side of my "normal" job so actually, the little respite between out time zones works out perfectly for me!
    The links that you sent depict my exact adapter! That was a great help!

    Well, I'm about to start the first one in a few minutes! Somewhat anxious but here goes! I'll let you know as soon as I do about # 1 (a Win98 install first!)
    Bill


  • Hi AHT !

    I pretty much discovered the same thing while surfing different sites. Seems that IBM has one of, if not THE toughest password protection setups of all of the bigger manufacturers.
    I did contact the seller and explained the situation nicely but in detail and she got a bit nasty about it anyway! She said to return the drive and she'll refund my $51.00 (but of course I eat the shipping costs both ways!) Caveat Emptor or so they say!
    I have a 1.0 gig HD that I'll use instead! It's a bit better than the 814s and I have a couple of them.
    Back w/ you soon as I do and perhaps we can "put this puppy to bed" at last!

    Have a great day, Bill


  • G'day AHT !

    Yes, they delivered it at almost exactly the time that they promised! Actually they were three minutes early! It's amazing!
    I'm woring on the prep that you sent me to do, Drivers, Bios, etc. and I also got some larger hard drives from e-bay that aren't in yet but I'm not going to wait for them. I'll program the ones that I have and that'll teach me how to re-program the larger ones when they arrive. I plan on hitting it either tonight or certainly tomorrow morning.
    Thanx again and I'll be back w/ you soonest!

    Bill


  • G'day AHT !
    After reading your last response I pulled out all of the "things" that I received w/ these laptops and I need to apologize to you. The external CD-ROM is a PCMCIA SCSI and I do have a PCMCIA card for it! It's says PCMCIA SCSI II on the card, by Panasonic. The drive is a Sony Discman model KXL-D720. I also have an Iomega 1 gb external hard-drive that I must have been confusing the CD drive with! So sorry.
    Having this Iomega external hard-drive, does that add any asistance to what I need to do? (Just an aside athought).
    I also have 4 IBM Port Replicators too if that is of any help! I should have told you all of this but didn't want to burden you w/ non-useful info!
    As for the boot disk (with system files)? Do I search Google for them or is there a certain place to access these downloads?
    I went to Froogle as you suggested and purchased the 2.5 to 3.5 HDD connector / adapter as you suggested. Should arrive in two days! Thanx, because it appears that this would be the quickest (and easiest way for my limited technical base) to accomplish this task. I didn't see where these sites offered the instructions to do this connector so if you could also direct me in this task I'd appreciate it also!
    When you say to use my desktop to copy the Win98 installation CDs to the 2.5 hard-drive. Is it as simple as that? Just copy the CD from my desktop CD drive telling it to copy to the "named" 2.5 floppy drive? Same with the upgraded system drivers! All copied onto the same 2.5 HDD? Sounds simple (although again, I'm an old timer who usually thinks analog, no necessarily digitally)!
    Do I have to concern myself w/ the BIOS?

    Once the files are copied onto the 2.5 and I re-install them into the laptop, do I then find the "setup" or "Install" executable and then just follow prompts?
    I am a bit leary about using WinZip. I have that program loaded on my desktop but have never "zipped" any files, only unzipped them so I'm not even sure that I know how to do that!
    I thank you for not having me go the DOS Networking route! I would want to download the PCMCIA drivers for the RJ45 card and connector but imagine that I could do that easier once I have the Win98 O/S loaded and running. I plan on using the RJ45 connection to connect to a linksys cable router to allow for internet access for the kids but that can be done later also!
    It is a true pleasure working with someone who really knows what to do! I fumble around here in this I.T. technology (and really love it) but I'm in actuality a trained carpenter and all of this technology comes hard! Thank you deeply for your help and obvious concern. I sincerely appreciate all that you are doing for us.
    Bill


  • Hi AHT - Hard Drives in the laptops vary, one is only an 800 +- mb, two I believe are 1.0 and 1.4 gig and the last I upgraded to a 2.1 gig.
    I have the Boot disks as directed! Thanx.

    I won't be able to get to the next step until tomorrow evening (after work) and that, if you don't know is E.S.T. (I'm in NY).
    Will I be usin my desktop and switching hard drives or using the external PCMCIA CD-ROM drive that I have?
    One of the laptops boots to DOS already. Relative to partitioning the drives, does already booting to DOS have any impact on the partitioning aspect or do I just type fdisk and go on from there?
    Will get back w/ you tomorrow evening.

    Thanx, Bill


  • Thank You! Just got back from a little family get together myself awhile ago but the weather here is a bit sullen. It's been a tough winter!
    Canada! I couldn't tell, you have no accent :-) :-) :-)

    Too bad about the USB CardBus, thought that I scored a coup! Oh well, I have friends with newer Dell laptops that probably could use it and the price (except for the s&h was a real steal too)!
    Been working on this transition a short while now and I'm winding down on the install of the first one. I only loaded the parts that you told me but I can't figure out what to do with the drivers that you had me download from IBM. Do I just "stick'em" (<-my accent :-)) anywhere on the HD or are there certain places to copy them too?
    Once I get one loaded you said something about deleting what I don't need 'cause this O/S is taking up more than half of the little drive!
    The laptops will be used by children ages 10 to 17 that are in Group Care in our residential homes as stand-alones for homework and computer educational purposes! No networking w/ these!
    The one computer that I installed the O/S on has a built-in CD ROM drive and when I downloaded the boot disk I used a disk that I downloaded with a version that had CD ROM support. That CD ROM is working now too! It's only a 4x but it beats the heck out of 25 floppies!!!
    Where would I find the drivers for the external CD ROMs? I have a PCMCIA Network adapter that has an RJ45 plug on it. I naturally haven't been able to try it yet but I probably can connect that through my little Linksys 4 port Router to access Road Runner if that's the best method?
    Don't worry about getting back to me in any hurry, I'm having a grand old time "fiddli'" with this whole thing and diving into my desktoip! I've goy my wife believing that I know what I'm doing and after 11 years, that's a good change!
    Have a great day, Take care and I'll hear from you when you have the time.

    The best, Bill


  • Correction:

    The username I provided above, should be 'driver', not 'drivers'.


  • Oh, by the way, in case you were interested in how lucrative this hard-drive hacking business might be:
    http://www.nortek.on.ca/hdd_pw.html#HDD


  • Hi AHT

    Haven't forgotten you, just been out of town on a family emergency and I only got back in tonight around 6:00 pm. Really beat!
    I have two units done and two to go! One of them is realy giving me headaches though. Everytime that I think I that I've gotten it done it either won't boot up or won't shut down or worse, I get messages that say some important files are either corrupted or missing so I start over again!
    I just got a 3.2 gig HDD and a 5 gig HDD in the mail so I'll try one of those instead of the little 800 that I've been fighting with! Perhaps it will be more cooperative with me!
    I'm off to bed now to catch up on some ZZZZZZZZZZZ. It's been a rough couple of days so if you don't mind I'll get back with you on say Friday?
    Until then, the best to you and yours.

    Bill


  • If it would not be too much trouble, can you please re-run FDISK on the one that reported 'unknown' for the file system? It would be best if you can change the file system to FAT32. To do this using FDISK and FORMAT, you will need to:
    a. using FDISK, 'delete' the partition
    b. now, 'create' a new partition, using all of the space available
    c. confirm that the file system used this time is FAT32

    That way, all of the disks will be similar.

    As well, at this point in time, please pop the Windows 98 installation CD into your desktop's CD-ROM drive, and take a look at how much space the files are taking (in case you are not already familiar with how to do this in XP, the simplest way is to right-click on the CD-ROM's drive letter in Windows Explorer, and select Properties...; you can also do this by selecting everything (files and folders) in the root directory of the CD, then right-click on the files and view the Properties...). I would like to confirm how much space the installation files will require for your version of the installation CD.
    Thanks,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Good Morning AHT;

    Well, if you celebrate it, Happy Easter! If not, Happy Sunday anyway!

    Good idea! When I get home from church this morning I'll give that method a shot, I've got multi gigs of free space to use!
    While i'm at it, after loading the O/Ss should I also load the parts of MS Office that I want to have (Word, Outlook)? What about a utility from Time-Warner Road Runner so they can access the internet too? Anti-virus?
    I have ordered from e-bay a PCMCIA 2.0, two port USB CardBus too so I can probably copy and load that way on everything except Win95, maybe/right?
    Here is the URL for what I bought. I don't know how to make it a link so you'll have to copy and paste! Sorry.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3473703439&category=42323&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWN%3AIT&rd=1
    I'll get w/ you as soon as I get the first one copied to the 2.5!

    Thanx, Bill


  • Hi 1mrfixzit-ga!

    I'm moving our conversation in the 'Answer' part of the system, but we will see the task through all the way before you rate and accept the Answer. It is just easier for use to correspond when working in the Answer section as opposed to the Question Clarification section, once we get into the details.
    It sounds like you received a lot of useful parts with those Thinkpads, that's good. For now, the best route to take is the one that you've started on, which is to simply work with the basic laptops themselves.
    You can download a Windows 98 boot disk from the following site:

    http://www.bootdisk.com

    Depending on which version of Windows 98 installation CDs you have, you should download either the Windows 98, or the Windows 98 Second Edition (SE) boot disk image. When you run this image executable on your desktop, it will ask for a floppy disk, then create a bootable floppy for you.
    Booting with this floppy in the laptops will allow you to start up the laptops, and format the hard drives. I have neglected to ask you how big the hard drives are, so please let me know (if you know).
    To format the hard drives, boot using the floppy. After you have finished booting, you will be at a DOS command prompt (the boot disk creates a 'virtual disk' in RAM so that it can unpack the compressed files stored on the floppy). From this DOS prompt, you will need to use the FDISK utility to confirm that the hard drives are ready for use. So, from the command prompt, type FDISK and hit Enter.
    In the FDISK program, you will be able to navigate logically through the menus... once you know certain terms. For this, please first read:
    http://support.microsoft.com:80/support/kb/articles/q255/8/67.asp

    In particular, the section entitled "How to Partition and Format a Master Hard Disk". If you go to step 3 of that section, you will see the FDISK menu. You need to:
    a. Display partition information for the current hard drive
    b. Confirm that the partition uses up the whole capacity of the hard drive

    If there is unused space on the hard drive(s), you will need to change the partition definition to maximize the assigned space, or else there will be wasted space. Before you do anything like that, though, please let me know what you find first.
    After using FDISK, and exiting the program, you will need to use the FORMAT command to format the hard drive as a bootable disk. This command is:
    FORMAT C: /S

    Naturally, the program will ask you if you are sure you want to do this, but after you say Yes, it will proceed to format the hard drive and copy the necessary system files over to make it bootable. When it is done, you will want to switch to C: (by typing 'C:' at the command prompt) to see that the drive is indeed accessible. If it is, create a new directory called 'DOS' (the command is: 'md DOS' from the C:> prompt), and copy everything from the virtual disk into the new DOS directory (so, if your virtual disk is letter X, for example, you would issue this command from the C:> prompt: 'copy X:*.* C:DOS*.*').
    You will then need to test that the hard drives can boot, by shutting down the laptop, ejecting the floppy, and powering them back up.
    I will pause at this point to allow you to perform the above formatting procedures, and get back to me with confirmation that everything worked, before we proceed with the next step.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • We are going to go with the simpler route of using your desktop PC (and the adapter that you have ordered), as getting the PCMCIA adapter and the CD-ROM working in DOS is probably going to be a nightmare.
    Even for the hard drive that already boots up in DOS, it is best to go through the above procedure to FDISK and FORMAT it, so that you can be sure that the hard drive is ready for Windows 98.
    You can complete the above steps prior to having the hard drive adapter, so take your time and let me know when you have prepared all four hard drives.
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • The small connector on the back of the Thinkpads is the connector for an external floppy drive. The Thinkpad 365 series had some models avaialble with a built-in CD-ROM; for these units, it was possible to use a floppy drive externally using an adapter housing/cable that plugs into that special port. IBM still uses that port, actually, on the port replicators for some of their current models. The special adapter allows the floppy disk to be used through the parallel port instead on some models (support is built into the BIOS). In my experience with multiple Thinkpad models, though, I do not know of any that provide SCSI support on the motherboard.
    Can you tell me more about the external CD-ROM drive? Make/model?

    If it were me, I would first use a Windows 98 boot disk (with system files) to boot up the Thinkpads and format the hard drives (as bootable drives). You can get a Windows 98 boot disk image online that will allow you to do this. This will allow you to make sure that the laptops are working, in case you aren't already certain of this.
    Next, I would remove the hard drives from the laptops, use a 2.5"-3.5" hard drive connector adapter ( http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=2.5+3.5+%22hard+drive+adapter%22 ) to allow me to mount the drive temporarily in a desktop PC, then use the desktop PC to copy the Windows 98 installation CD's files to the hard drive. I would also visit the IBM website ( http://www-1.ibm.com/support/dlsearch.wss?&qse.cq&all&q=365x ) to download all available Win98 drivers and copy them onto the hard drives. I would then re-install the hard drives in the Thinkpads, and run the Win98 installation on each one.
    If this sounds like something you would like to try, I can provide greater detail in the form of an Answer. Otherwise, the other approaches I can think of would be:
    - to use something like WinZip or a similar program to 'span' the contents of the CD onto floppies to be copied onto the Thinkpads. Since the Windows 98 CD's contain at least 170 MB of data (at least, that's how much data is copied from the CDs to the hard drive during a CD-based installation), that would require about 150 floppies and more time and patience than anyone I know possesses!
    - to locate the DOS drivers for the PCMCIA network card you mentioned (the one with the RJ45 connector) and install them on the Thinkpads, then install the necessary services on your XP machine, network the computers together, and try to move the CD contents over that way. While this may seem simpler than the hard drive removal method, DOS networking is not something that I would wish on most people.
    Looking forward to hearing back from you,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher


  • Hi AHT - I've been putting together the C.O.A.'s for the Win98 Prgs but can only locate 3! I do have C.O.A.'s for Win95 so I'll have to do one in that O/S. That's okay though, it'll still meet the need.
    In as much as I've already FDISK'd and Boot disk'd all four for Win98 already, what do I have to do to re-boot one to Win95?
    I tried just running a Win95 bootdisk when booting-up but it won't take a disk now! Says "non system disk, remove and hit any key"!!
    Can I re-format the laptop HDD for Win95 when I connect it to my laptop and start fresh from there?
    I probably should also increase the money that I authorized PayPal for this question 'cause I'm eating up lots more of your time than I thought that I would and my questions seem to keep coming. I want to be fair with you. How can I do that?


  • "Seems that IBM has one of, if not THE toughest password protection
    setups of all of the bigger manufacturers."

    That is one of the list of reasons why I personally swear by IBM Thinkpads for business purposes... but stay away from recommending them when anyone asks for a recommendation of what machine they should buy for home use or for their kid who is about to head off to college. All that quality and over-engineering pays dividends in the business world, but is generally wasted in personal or academic use. Plus, it seems the college kids these days all want those silver-coloured laptops from Sony, Dell, etc. :)
    While the refund offer from the seller will help recover some of the costs of this lesson, the truly sad part of this whole transaction is that you know she will simply turn around and sell the locked hard-drive to the next unsuspecting victim on eBay. Truly buyer beware!
    Incidentally, you can note with pride that, after all of this, you will have personally performed more laptop hard-drive recovery and imaging than many computer service technicians working in small shops and even large companies. For many large companies, it is standard practice to send laptops in to a service depot for any major repairs, and a hard drive replacement in a system with no other means of accessing mass-storage media (like a CD-ROM) is definitely considered major. Congratulations!
    Regards,

    aht-ga
    Google Answers Researcher